You are visiting the "1902 Minutes" page. Don't forget, click on the
"back" button to return to the "Timeline" page.
Below is documentation regarding one Bearded Collie being shown in the
Miscellaneous Class at a dog show in the United States. Author, Anne
Hier, gave permission for her chapter, "What is a Breed?" to be retyped
and included on this website. Her chapter included the Minutes of the
Quarterly Delegates Meeting, published in the "American kennel Gazette,"
in 1902. A Beardie had been entered in the Miscellaneous Class.
What is a Breed?
Retyped from Dog Shows Then and Now: An Annotated Anthology
by Anne M. Hier, Copyright 1999. Anne M. Hier. All Rights Reserved.
Under the head of General Business the protest from Philip W. Moen
against the action of Secretary Vredenburgh was taken up.
Mr. Muss-Arnolt: May I ask if there has been a protest lodged against
the win of that bitch?
Mr. Vredenburgh: No, The breed of dog was not stated.
Mr. Muss-Arnolt: It is stated as an "Old Fashioned Scotch Collie." I
think it is beyond the scope of this officeŚthat it is a revolutionary
proceeding on the part of this office when it undertakes to define
breeds. I think I am one of the oldest Delegates here. I do not think
that it lies with this office to say that this is not a breed. Without
attempting to detract from our Secretary's knowledge of dogs, I never
knew yet that he was an authority on breeds, and that he could say a
Smooth-Coated Collie was a Rough-Coated Collie when he was not there. I
think it ought to be left to the officiating Judge. If there is no
protest lodged I do not think that the Secretary has the right to say
that it is a Rough-Coated Collie when it is not. This dog was as far
from being a Rough-Coated Collie as is a Smooth-Coated Collie, and he is
an acknowledged breed of Bearded Collie. I move that the protest of Mr.
Moen be allowed and the cancellation of the Old Fashioned Scotch Collie
may be and is hereby annulled.
Mr. Vredenburgh: The rules say that the Miscellaneous Class shall be
open to all dogs of established breeds for which no regular class has
been provided in the premium list. Mr. Muss-Arnolt says that the Judge
who judged the regular class of Rough-Coated Collies also judged the
Miscellaneous Class. I would like to ask how that Judge knew that this
dog was entered as an Old Fashioned Scotch Collie?
Mr. Muss-Arnold: Because there was no Judges' Book and he had to go by
the Entry Book, and it was shown to him what it was, and it was entered
in the Miscellaneous Class: "Philip W. Moen, Old Fashioned Scotch
CollieŚLady Mabel" Our rules demand that the breed be given, and that
covers everything. We have not any established number of breeds here. I
know a number of breeds well, forty or fifty breeds in England and
possibly forty or fifty on the Continent, but I would not have the
courage just from reading a thing like that to say that it is a
Rough-Coated Collie. Under what precedent, under what rule?
Mr. Vredenburgh: I bow with all humility to Mr. Arnold as the Judge and
to Mr. Arnolt's knowledge of the different breeds of dogs throughout
England. I do not pretend to have any such knowledge. I did not see the
dog. I know nothing about the dog. I have to go by the records. The
claim has been made by Mr. Arnold that the Secretary has nothing to do
with it. Before he can say that he has got to have these rules amended.
Here is a rule which says that the Secretary of the American Kennel Club
must cancel all wins when he has satisfied himself that these rules have
been violated in the following instances, and one of the instances is
when a dog is entered in the Miscellaneous Class and the breed is not
specified or recognized. If the breed is not recognized he certainly has
got to know whether he can recognize that breed, and I claim here that
the wording, "Old-Fashioned" is not a breed. They had Collies; they had
Collie classes; there were Rough-Coated Collies. Here is a Rough-Coated
Collie and it is designated as an "Old Fashioned Scotch Collie." They
might just as well have said, "A New Fashioned Yellow Dog," but if they
had said "Bearded Collie," it would have been a different thing, and in
order to be absolutely certain that he did not say that, I sent for the
original entry blank and there is nothing said on that about the dog
being a Bearded Collie. It simply said, "Old Fashioned Scotch Collie." I
claim I did perfectly right and acted within the rules when I canceled
the win of that dog. It is immaterial what that dog was; I go by the
record. The rule says that an exhibitor must be responsible for his own
errors, and Mr. Moen made an error in designating that breed as an "Old
Fashioned" breed and not as a Bearded Collie.
Mr. Muss-Arnolt: By what proof does the Secretary make the claim that
the breed is not known?
Mr. Vredenburgh: The breeds are in the American Kennel Stud Book, and
there is no such thing in that book as Old Fashioned Scotch Collie. I
took the trouble to look through the English Stud Book, and I did not
see any classification for "Old Fashioned" dogs of any breed. The
Secretary is directed to act under certain contingencies. The only thing
he can act upon are certain records. I want to call your attention to a
case that was decided where a puppy was entered at one of the Milwaukee
shows. I canceled the win of the puppy and fined the club five dollars
for entering a dog under age. It was proven conclusively that the man
making that entry had made a mistake of about two or three months; that
the dog was fully within the age at which he could be shown; but as we
had the original entry blank that said the dog was under age, the
American Kennel Club ruled that it did not make any difference what the
facts were as to the age of the dog. I have not disputed the question at
any time that it was a Bearded Collie, but I do dispute that there was
any breed of dog known in the world as an Old Fashioned Fox Terrier or
Old Fashioned Pointer.
Mr. Viti: It seems to me that the matter narrows down to a definition of
the Miscellaneous Class. It seems to me that it is a question of how
breeds are established; whether the writing of the name of any breed at
all on the records of the American Kennel Club is an establishment of a
breed. If that is so, and the name "Bearded Collie" has never been put
upon that list, then that is not an established breed.
Dr. Foote: I have had the pleasure of showing in the Miscellaneous Class
for a number of years, and if we are going to hold any hard and fast
rule on that class, the class might just as well be cut out. We find all
sorts of things put down there: Fiji Island Terriers and South American
Dogs, Siberian Bloodhounds and the like. It seems to me that the judge
ought to be allowed a little liberty, and that the Secretary's duties
ought to be somewhat curtailed so far as cutting out wins in that class
Mr. Carnochan: I would like to ask the Secretary one question, which may
perhaps solve the difficulty: Suppose a dog was entered in the
Miscellaneous Class and he was called an "Old Fashioned English
Terrier," would he allow the dog first if it won first?
Mr. Vredenburgh: It is all owing to whether or not there was a
classification for English Terriers.
Mr. Carnochan: Suppose the dog was entered under the title "Old English
Terrier"Śwould he allow that?
Mr. Vredenburgh: Shat is an Old English Terrier?
Mr. Carnochan: Will you tell me what is an Old English Terrier?
Mr. Vredenburgh: I don't know.
Mr. Carnochan: I picked up a Stud Book of 1890, and saw that at one time
there was some difficulty among the Welsh Terrier exhibitors, and they
did not like the type, and they formed another club and called
themselves, "Old English Terrier Club," and in this old Stud Book I
found Old English Terriers with pedigrees. They are now all merged back
into Welsh Terriers again. I ask the question for the reason that I
think if a man who had entered an Old English Terrier as a Welshman, for
instance, you would order him back to the Welsh Terrier class, yet at
the same time he might be eligible for the Old English Terrier class.
Mr. Vredenburgh: It is for this meeting to decide whether the two words
"Old Fashioned" are used in connection with a breed in any dog.
Mr. Mortimer: "Old Fashioned" does not designate a breed, but when the
words "Old Fashioned" are used in connection with a breed, then it does
designate a certain breed. It is a well-known fact that throughout the
British Islands, and Old Fashioned Scotch Collie is a Bearded Collie.
That has been recognized. I do not mean to say it is in the Stud Book or
anything of that sort, but it is generally known as such.
Mr. Rodman: Is not the Secretary correct in what he has done, at least
to this extent: the Miscellaneous Class is for dogs that have no class
provided for them? It does not make any difference whether a dog is a
Bald-Headed Collie or a Bearded Collie; there was a class established
for Collies; why wasn't Mr. Moen's dog put in the Collie class?
The Chairman: Under the present rule of the American Kennel Club Mr.
Vredenburgh has a right to decide whether it is a recognized breed or
whether it is not.
Mr. Carnochan: I move as an amendment to the motion already before the
house that the matter be referred to the Stud Book Committee until it
finds out whether the Old Fashioned Scotch Collie is a recognized breed
or not. My reason for referring it to the Stud Book Committee is that a
great many of us have never even heard of a Bearded Collie. Some of us
know nothing about Collies at all and it seems to be a very easy matter
for the Stud Book Committee to find out whether those two terms are used
for that breed. If they are used, then the Stud Book Committee will
report at the next meeting and we will annul the decision.
Mr. Arnolt: I accept the amendment.
The motion as amended was second and carried.